The Successful Coach

Jon Michail

15 podcast

What’s your branding? What are your ways of growing your business?

Personal branding is very important and it must be authentic. It correlates strongly with money, status, and personal growth.

Develop the inside so that you will not collapse on the outside.

Personal branding must be done holistically. Go back to your foundation. Mental health and personal well-being must be stable. You must believe yourself so that other people will believe you.

Package yourself authentically to attract clients. It’s true that visual presentation is important, but quality is more important. Personal branding builds trust. You can achieve anything you want…just make sure it meets your standards.

A bit about Jon:

Jon is a best-selling author and Forbes contributor. He has helped C-level executives, entrepreneurs, and change-makers to unlock and transform their personal and business leadership authority, influence, and impact to achieve superior Gravitas.

Jon has spoken at over 1200 seminars, workshops, and conferences, and coached over 7500 one-on-one clients for HSBC, PWC, L’Oreal, IBM, Disney, BHP Billiton, GE, Kelloggs, AFL, Crown, and LVMH, among others across four continents.

Where you can find them:

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Jon Michail 0:02

If you don't believe in yourself, you don't believe yourself.

Doug Holt 0:07

Very true.

Jon Michail 0:08

When you don't believe yourself, no one else will believe you, either. And what will happen is, then you'll start to be controlled by others that you believe. So this is about you, reclaiming your authority.

Doug Holt 0:27

Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. I have a fantastic guest, and you're going to love them.

If you don't know, Jon Michail, John's an award-winning image consultant and personal branding pioneer who has successfully launched personal brands for business leaders, entrepreneurs, and change-makers. Forget this over 30 years worldwide. And I'm not even scratching the surface at that depiction. John, thank you so much for being here.

Jon Michail 0:56

Thanks, Doug. Appreciate being here. And it's an honor to share some, hopefully, wisdom with your guests.

Doug Holt 1:03

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Well, John, let's start by talking about it because you have a unique background. And we had a great conversation in the pre-interview. Let's talk a little bit if you can about your background and how you got here today.

Jon Michail 1:18

Okay, so I started as a fashion designer for the Christian Dior brand a long time ago. And that led me to leave and start my manufacturing plant, warehouse, import luxury goods from Europe, some of the world's biggest brands. And that then evolved to China retail stores. It was a dream to have this beautiful luxury type of organization that makes people look great. But what I discovered was, I like, making people look great, but what got me was how they felt, and how they would say, "Hey, I feel really good, I feel positive, I feel empowered." And from that, that's what led me into coaching. I discovered that I like human beings more than I like the product. Although I was good at the product and, and still am, right? But it's just like, the human relationship aspect connected me more. And that's what led to me launching a consulting business, first in partnership with a great guy from San Francisco called Robert Pantone that was like the guru at the time.

I then launched seminars, workshops all over Southeast Asia and then eventually started doing my own thing. So we've been running a coaching organization for over 30 years before the word coaching was popular in the business world. And since then, we've evolved that into a different model than it was originally. I mean, it's been a lot of others trying and learning new things along the way. So the model today's authentic personal branding, and I say that without making it sound like a cliche because it's an overused word right now in a fake news world. And it's a holistic approach. What that means is that we're clear, I'm an image-maker, but we're talking about something totally real, as opposed to fake. Because most image makers do a spin on the cover-up or so, our uniqueness is around bringing out the individual's authentic aspect. In this case, of course, from a coaching perspective, and get them to live their story, their purpose, their mission. In a way, we eradicate a lot of fears that are so commonly promoted today. So you can take control of your life because if you don't believe in yourself, you don't believe yourself.

Doug Holt 4:31

Very true.

Jon Michail 4:32

When you believe yourself, no one else will believe you either. And what will happen is that you'll start to be managed and controlled by others you believe. So this is about you, reclaiming your authority.

Doug Holt 4:56

I love it, and what I love about it in our initial conversations. Personal branding has become a thing these days, and you've been doing it for a long time. And we look at it, and you're working on the individual's image from the inside out as well. So you're taking both perspectives, where it's more holistic, and therefore it's more stable. It's got a better foundation on which to build off of.

Jon Michail 5:18

Yeah, spot on. Exactly and if you don't do it that way, you are doing it from a superficial perspective. So that's typical of that would be a politician. Yep. Okay, and I've worked with them. And I worked quite a few of them in six different countries. And specifically, they would say, I want to be authentic, but really, what they want to be just elected? And we all want to be elected, right? From a sustainability point of view, my approach is, unless you work on the intrinsic values. Then you're just chasing the extrinsic shiny brand new things, and what happens with that is eventually leading you into a place where probably will not be so positive. Because you're always chasing, you're always chasing and chasing, and there's nothing to chase. It's already here.

Doug Holt 6:29

I love that, and we talk about I mean, you wrote a book called Life Branding, right? And coming through there.

Jon Michail 6:36

In 2002

Doug Holt 6:37

Which is a fantastic term when you're looking at how are you going to structure this? And one thing that you touched on here, John, is how your business has changed and evolved as you've continued to grow and try new things. How has that experience been running the business 30 years ago, all the way till now?

Jon Michail 6:57

Yeah, well, the biggest difference is right now. Let's say in the professional world or the business world, but let's talk about the professional world with the COVID what's happened in the last six months. The world has changed dramatically, possibly forever, in the old ways. So people right now don't matter where they are, if they're earning 100 grand a year, or $5 million a year more, right. Everyone has been affected in some way. Even psychologically, okay, so what this is all about is about getting you back to reality, your foundations. Where once upon a time, it might have been less about that. It was about just making people look good. That's where I was originally starting. So from a holistic price right now, why this is essential is that if you look at the Ying and Yang, you got mental health issues right now that are going gangbusters all over the planet, you got anxiety, and got depression, and you got suicide. I hate to bring all this negative stuff into this, but this is also part of your brand. Your mental health is part of your brand. So if you haven't got that under control, your brand will be perceived in the marketplace as unstable. So I had to be forced into this aspect, the internal as having said that, nothing has forced me it was like, what I was attracted to, to look at how we can make a bigger difference than ever, by looking at this holistically, because what I discovered in my early days as I can make somebody look good on the outside. But if they are not developing on the inside and growing on the inside, eventually, everything collapses.

Doug Holt 8:59


Jon Michail 9:00

so I discovered that myself, but having said that, I've always been a searcher myself into the personal growth, personal development world for a long time for over 40 years. So it's something that I believed in myself as well. We normally would satellite clients because we are you here, and it's normally associated with three things. It's either money, make more money, find status, and the last one is personal growth, personal development. Out of those three, I'm very general right now as the quick and dirty, but the thing about that is we get them to write them. And from that we've got a great conversation to go anywhere around that. So if a client says, "I want to make more money, John," great, no problem. Okay. But what're your foundations look like? So if you look at today's branding world, people think personal branding is going onto social media and becoming famous, right?

Doug Holt 10:05


Jon Michail 10:06

That's fantastic. If you're Kardashian. But if you don't know foundations, I promise you that it's going to collapse, guaranteed. It's only a matter of time. Even if you're an Instagram influencer, eventually, it's going to collapse because you've got no foundations, nothing you can build a house without strong foundations. Human beings are the same. Of course, the tech companies, at times, aren't going to tell you that, right? Because they just want customers, right? This is about your life. This is about your business, your career, and your branding. And if you're talking about career or business, it's your insurance policy. What personal branding does? It builds a moat around you. The things in history that kings and queens had moats around their castles. What do you think they had? So that I can get attacked. The same thing. So, where's your moat right now? And we haven't been trying to think this way. So this could be foreign for a lot of your listeners.

Doug Holt 11:10

Yeah. Absolutely.

Jon Michail 11:11

We haven't been trying to think this way. We've been trying to be a good boy, be a good girl, go to school, get educated, get a job, then possibly, whatever, get married, or find a partner. But we haven't been taught how to be life smart or street smart; you're gonna learn that through lived experience. What's been extraordinary since COVID, my market historically has been 35+ experienced executives, business people, entrepreneurs, change-makers, that are reaching a stage of their lives and are saying "What's next?" or having a midlife crisis. Well, the interesting thing about it is our business has grown dramatically with your late 20s now, through COVID. And I'll tell you why it's clear because I've told us they are looking for a silver hair experience.

Doug Holt 12:17


Jon Michail 12:18

Young people under the age of 35,32. Right? Then especially in the West, they've lived lives of real comfort and complacency. If you're not constantly growing and privileged from that perspective. Hence, what's happening right now is, "Hey, we want to learn how to position ourselves in the marketplace right now because our jobs are going to be in danger if we still have a job, our businesses in danger, because of what's happening in the economy. So we need to learn how to basically promote ourselves, position ourselves, though, with a value that we are sort of respect for, not just for free, okay. Because if you're studying the whole online business model, it's all about the race to the bottom from consulting to products. If you're starting the tech companies, right, they started by allowing people to steal stuff off this of their systems. What that's conditioned us is to look at everything for free or for cheap or whatever. That's not good for your brand. Because if that's in your mindset, if that scarcity mindset, is what you're operating daily, you're a slave to the system, and I'm maximizing your value because there's a difference between life and being valued. You can be liked on Facebook and have no value. You can have a million likes and no value. Isn't that interesting?

Doug Holt 14:03

It was interesting. You mentioned that because I had a phone call earlier today with a YouTube influencer, actually named by YouTube as an influencer. He and his wife are both influencers. And I asked him what their brand was, what is it you do? What do you bring awareness to? And he went into "Well, I have over a million downloads per video." And I said, "No, no, no, no, no. What is it? You do and what are you about?" and it was harder for him to pinpoint. So for people like that, John, when you say authentic branding, I gotta imagine most people are going "Authentic? I'm just copying. I'm going to do what John does successfully. I'm just going to copy him. I'm going to get the white shirt and start looking good. Go into the gym".

Jon Michail 14:42

It's force blue.

Doug Holt 14:47

Perfect. That's my first lesson, right? Yes, I could use a lot of them, trust me. But when we talk about authenticity,

Jon Michail 14:56

You'll look good in that, don't worry.

Doug Holt 14:57

Thanks, brother. Thank you. Gotta imagine most people are saying, "Well, where do I even start?"

Jon Michail 15:04

Yes. So the foundations, as I said, is the key. So if you can imagine a pyramid model, just as an example for your listeners and viewers, the bottom bit is the foundations. The foundations are all about your packaging. Yet, get the foundations right, and then package them. The second part of the pyramid is about the status, the fine, otherwise known as promoting. And the last bit of the pyramid at the top is about, excuse me, what we call is caching. That's your profit. And caching means three different things. From a simplicity point of view, it means money, right? And money doesn't matter how wealthy you are. Okay, money's still there, even if you pretend it's not. Number two is reputation. For some of our clients, yes that I need the money anymore. Right? To the same extent, but the reputation has to be a gold standard. Sure. And number three, it's about legacy. What are you leaving behind? And that's normally for people 50 Plus, that have been around for a while; I've had a lot of success. And now it's like, what are we going to leave behind? So it's, so that's the simplicity of the model. Of course, there are many other degrees in there because we personalize every program to the individual. But there are so many spin-offs from that because you become a product, right? So as a brand, if you become a brand, what you are is a commodity. Commodities have little value on a supermarket shelf. I mean, you sell a lot of them, right.

But as a human being, you're gonna be thinking of yourself as a niche as opposed to a mass because that's different forms of marketing. As an individual personal brand, the niches where you, as an individual personal brand, are your niche there and specifically, by packaging yourself authentically. Then you position yourself to your target market to attract the value that you are looking for. And that also means some clients will not be your clients because they will not be able to afford you, and you got to be very clear about that. Life's too short if you're gonna be chasing, chasing, chasing, well, good luck. You're gonna start chasing yourself after a while; that's what happens. The online world is created because you've got so much competition online right now that every man and his dog are becoming a coach and advisor, a consultant. By the way, if you remember the last crash, everyone that became an employee became a consultant, right? So you got to be clear. Otherwise, you could be chasing down the rabbit hole, trying to work this out. And it's not that difficult, by the way. But what you need is the courage to face some of the stuff some of the workings and have to do to be very clear about it. So otherwise, you're just going into the spin stuff, right? The superficial element, and that's fine as well. But in the long term, there's no sustainability. I can tell you that my experience clearly illustrates that.

Doug Holt 18:57

Sure. Well, your brand won't stand the test of time or any ridicule. You think about brands and personal branding; you think about basketball players. Then you have Michael Jordan, who can spin-off because his brand is worth more than he was getting paid as an actual basketball player.

Jon Michail 19:14

Guaranteed. Absolutely. And you got to Elon Musk right now, right? Big, personal brand. You got Richard Branson, you've got your President, Donald Trump, just stunning him again. By the way, Doug, let's not get into the politics of this right. Every time I mention his name, it says that you love him or hate him. I'm coming from a professional branding point of view. If a guy has been a master brand builder, a master, because remember where he comes from, he becomes the most powerful person on the planet. That didn't happen by accident, ladies, and gentlemen. That had a plan. So my argument is, What's your plan? What's your plan now? And depending on where you are in your life, maybe you don't need that. It's this not for everybody. You have to have some ambition here to do personal branding. If you have no ambition and you're willing to pull out along, then this is maybe not required for you.

Doug Holt 20:20

You have to want what I would also say, though, and I've been coaching for 20 years, a little over 20 years now. Many of the people I work with are men and business owners, and they almost need their brand within their families, right. Different micro versions of this can play out. And the ones that don't go along the path that you're describing, they end up finding themselves in the backseat, and this relationship is just not working for them.

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Jon Michail 21:48

For sure, absolutely. 100%. So when we do the personal branding, from an artistic point of view. Are you a father? Are you a mother? Are you a husband or a partner? A son, a daughter? all of this is part of your brand. What happens is, you gotta own that as well. And what I mean by that also as part of your storytelling in building your brand is celebrating say, "Hey, I'm a father!", "I'm a mother!" Okay, because if you notice, with political correctness gone insane. You're not supposed to mention your father or a mother. Right? It's like, and you're gonna have to apply that. What the hell are you talking about? Right?

Doug Holt 22:44

I'm with you.

Jon Michail 22:46

I mean, you got children, celebrate your children. Some part of this has given me the courage to be yourself. Okay? Because as I said at the outset if you don't believe in yourself, you don't believe yourself. If you don't believe yourself, no one else will believe you either. And then what you'll always be is alternating while listening and being led by others. Okay, so take control of your life. Take control of your brain.

Doug Holt 23:17

Yeah, guys, listen to this. This is great advice. And I can tell you, John, from my personal experience, when I was going into the corporate world to do coaching, I was told that I had to wear a suit, I had to look a certain way, I couldn't have all of these things that weren't me. And I'll be honest, I did it for a couple of months, and it felt horrible. I noticed as soon as I was done working with a client, what does everybody do? They take off their jacket, and they take off the tie, they're getting out of this fake suit to come into. And as soon as I started dressing the way it feels appropriate for me, which is much more casual. Not only did I feel better, my clients got better results, but my income went up dramatically.

Jon Michail 24:00

Yeah, that's right. I mean, 100%. But it's a game, though, right? Entrepreneur businesses is a game, right?

Doug Holt 24:07

Perceptions are everything. That's your tagline on your LinkedIn. I love that.

Jon Michail 24:10

Yeah, perceptions are everything, and it doesn't matter if the perception is right or wrong. That's the perception the person has of you. And that's why perception management isn't a multi-billion dollar industry because it works. But let's take away the fakery from this. What you've got to treat is what you mentioned about a suit or your wardrobe. What this is all about is not about suits or ties or anything like that. What this is all about is your standards. That's what it is. Anyone that might once you ever make it about suits, and once make it superficial around that what they're doing is distracting you, okay? Okay. And you'll see this in the media with politicians when they start talking about the Presidents, as opposed to the policy; these are all distractions for mass consumption. What we're talking about here is standards; what are your standards? What are some things that you will not ever deviate from? So I'm saying this to you, because I've done, of course, a lot of corporate work at some of the biggest companies in the world, and you've probably seen a lot of Wall Street banks, right?

I've had HR managers tell this stuff. Oh, no, you can come in Polo tops right now. But when you study the chairman and the CEO and see that coming to work in politics, there's a message there, right? The leaders are playing one game that communicates this to the group, and then basically, the group thinks, Oh, that's cool, right. But the leadership is playing a different motivation. So my point here is, wear whatever you want. Just make sure it fits your standards. And if you look at even Steve Jobs, he used to wear polos, right? But if you're studying Polo, he said that we're always luxurious. He was normally buying in Japan while he was traveling there because he used to go for a lot of these meditations, which means the guy had high standards, although it looked like a very casual Polo top every day. So look, life's short. If you can afford it, if you have an abundance mindset, and it's not an issue, you don't have to struggle for that. Buy whatever you want. If you want to be Warren Buffett and still live in your 1950s home, do that as well. Right? Do whatever you love. What gives you a life-affirming way of being. But in the end, I would say, does it fit your standards?

Doug Holt 27:08

When you say standards, when I hear standards, I hear we have certain standards that we adhere to, right? For example, a standard might be for me; I work out every day; it's non-negotiable. We look at Steve Jobs and some of my clients who work also work in the banking industry or CEOs. Some of them will wear a polo, but they'll wear a nice, Polo that feels good on their skin. Do you see that as a changing of the guard when you talk about wardrobe? Or do you see standards as the standard is you got to wear if you're at the top you got to wear your suit? Did you get to wear a three-piece suit?

Jon Michail 27:46

No, not at all. The standards are what your standards are, but it's about quality. Sure, I mean, if you're going to communicate verbally, you want to communicate quality words, right? Your visual presentation is all about quality, as well. Don't expect results. And if you look down and out, yep. You might have a job for life down and out. But I promise you, and you're not getting your true value.

Doug Holt 28:15


Jon Michail 28:16

No different to a commodity product on a supermarket shelf. You're not getting maximum as opposed to the branded products. So that's what I'm saying here, basically, because the visual presentation we are human beings are aesthetic animals. We love beauty. Yeah, we love beautiful things you're going to a restaurant, let me give you example standards. You don't go to eat ugly food. Some restaurants weren't set up to be a niche, a bit of differentiation, that they create ugly food; they went broke in a week. Right?

Doug Holt 28:53

Yeah, sure.

Jon Michail 28:54

Yeah. And so that's, that's what I'm talking about here. It's a standard, and asceticism has been with us since ancient times. Beauty is power, in all aspects. So celebrate your beauty. And I'm not talking about it from a superficial point of view. I'm talking about holistically in and out whatever works for you. Right. As you get older, for instance, ageism is a big thing in the corporate world. Well, celebrate that, but at the same time, if you're 50, why are you learning to look 65? Tired and worn out? Right? That's not going to be a positive image from the perspective of being hired. That's the reality. You will get discriminated against in so many different ways. Don't worry about the laws, right? The laws it's like, a facade. You'll get discriminated against, but they will never tell you.

Doug Holt 29:59

Sure, yeah.

Jon Michail 30:01

It goes underground. Okay, my approach is really to do whatever it takes to maximize your value in this lifetime. Being street smart as part of that is essential. If you're just book smart, and you're not experienced from that perspective, it doesn't matter if you're 60. You might not have lived experience. Right? Then you're just a sort of most likely, you've probably complied with everything you've been told along the way, and you don't want to complicit in life. You want to question things as well, and certainly, from my perspective, I'm a very curious guy; I'm always questioning things. I'm not talking about benign. No one is right. Okay. But questions from the point of view of logic. Does this make sense? Because that's how my mind operates.

Doug Holt 31:00

In your business, John, especially in the coaching aspect, when people come to you, how often are you changing their physical appearance?

Jon Michail 31:09

Excellent. So you mentioned before, you're a fit guy, you support fitness and all of that, right? Am I right, Doug?

Doug Holt 31:18


Jon Michail 31:18

It's part of your big niche. Right?

Doug Holt 31:21


Jon Michail 31:22

And we support that 100%. So when you're talking about physical, yes, this is essential. But again, remember what I said about political correctness. Last week, a big HR company sent some of their people, one of the gentlemen executives, overweight. Now, HR did not dare to tell him he's got a problem. So I'm meeting the sandwich as a coach, but I made it very clear that as a man at the age of approaching mid-40s, approaching 50, you're going to have serious health issues. So I took it away from the aesthetics, right, although the aesthetics he was getting judged—so highly intelligent guy, by the way, great guy. But visually, he looked like a blimp. From a coaching perspective, we spoke about the fact that he has to start looking after his health. So definitely his physical fitness, from a visual point of view, but more importantly, from my health point of view, because I said to him, "If you don't get your act together, you're gonna die." That's what's gonna happen, especially when you go theory, it's out of control that heart attack material and sound something.

So what we would do in that case is we would recommend a fitness trainer that has a holistic approach, right? Not just running around the block every day, again, because we know that most human beings hate that, right? But most people don't love that. Somebody who understands that is good empathy is listening to the needs and then puts them on that journey as part of the whole program. So we would refer depending on intricate aspects that we're not the specialists in to make sure that we got a holistic approach because many things are going on right now. Mental health is another example. Although I'm training CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, we have other people we would refer to. I mean, we can't do everything. But what we're good at is picking holes that need plugging that we're very good at, so because we're authentic, we're not playing political games with you. This is essential, and this is essential for coaches because there's a lot of coaches in the world right now that have been trained in the last 15-20 years, who have picked up a lot of PC stuff that ticks the boxes. It does not transform; transformation is not a PC game. Right?

Doug Holt 34:23

I agree

Jon Michail 34:24

It's authentic conversations. So how can I have an authentic conversation with you if I'm worried? What are you going to think? What are you going to say, right? Of course, I want to do that with love, compassion, empathy, again, because I love human beings. That's the bottom line. That's why you do what you do.

Doug Holt 34:52

Sure. Yeah. Well, your job is not to be their friend per se. You can be friendly, but that's not the primary role of a coach. It's to be a guide and tell them the truth to help them get to their goals.

Jon Michail 35:02

Absolutely. 100%. The thing about that is, and a lot of my clients have become friends. I mean, my two mentors, once a billionaire, I started by doing all the work for his company; he's a self-made guy. From the perspective of those relationships, when you become friends, it's because people trust you. Personal branding is about building trust. I mentioned at the outset, and we live in a fake news world, personal branding builds trust. That's what authenticity does. But no cliches here; I'm talking about the real deal. Now, we're all working at it right for the rest of our lives. So this is not about being perfect. This is about really given a shot, and what I've noticed in my programs, I don't know about you, Doug. But in my programs, people say these are my needs, these are my wants, right? What I've noticed is needs and wants are all fine. Okay? What gets the job done is commitment.

Doug Holt 36:18

Yeah, absolutely. You got to be committed.

Jon Michail 36:22

The moment you're committed to something, even if you're a dodo bird, right? You've got hope. As opposed to not being committed, and you've got all the trophies next to your name. Right? Commitment is everything, and I can tell you, I've worked with business people, senior executives, sportspeople, champions, Olympians, and a lot of them have champion mindsets as opposed to champion physicality; we'll call it intelligence. That was average. They became champions; this is what people don't understand. So even personal branding in your niche as opposed to being a celebrity or a sports star, in your niche, you can build a fantastic personal brand could be worth a million bucks, 10 million bucks, whatever you want it to be, as part of your journey, as long as you're willing to follow a systematic plan and be committed to it. And that's the thing, what I mentioned before, if you're super efficient in looking for this as the next shiny thing, what will happen is you'll start social media or whatever. Then you'll jump on to something else, and jump on to something else and jump on something else. You don't need to do that. And not only that, if you do that for too long, you'll probably become neurotic.

Doug Holt 38:02

And no one's got time for that.

Jon Michail 38:04

Well, not. Not today, anyway.

Doug Holt 38:07


Jon Michail 38:09

We are in the new world, they say.

Doug Holt 38:10

Yeah, we are. We've been through these kinds of types of events before. Oh, John, you've been so generous with your time for those that want to follow up, learn more about you, grab the Life Branding Book; where should they go?

Jon Michail 38:22

Well, what I'm going to do is; obviously, I'm going to be sending you some details regarding our complimentary ebook. The 75-page ebook, I think you're loving. It gives you some great insights, what we call this insider, in the insider, secrets, top tips, about getting your brand out there. Put them into action. I mean, you don't even need to use us from that point of view. But certainly, if you wanted to contact us, our website is probably the best. It's

Doug Holt 39:07

Awesome. And I'll make sure that gets into the show notes as well. John, I always enjoy our conversations. I love your energy and what you bring to the community. So thank you so much for all you do. And thank you for being here.

Jon Michail 39:20

Doug, thank you very much. And I wish all your listeners and viewers a great future with all the challenges ahead. And I promise you, and a possibility exists if you believe in possibility.

Doug Holt 39:34

And we all do. Thank you again.

Jon Michail 39:37

My pleasure. Thanks, Doug. Cheerio.

Doug Holt 39:40

Thank you for joining us at The Successful Coach podcast. Please hit like and subscribe so we can bring you more great interviews like these. Until next time, have an amazing day.

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